Discussion:
A Quote from Len
(too old to reply)
N***@AOL.COM
2005-10-28 09:01:02 UTC
Permalink
"I've always had trouble with integrating "youngsters"
in what is a primarily _adult_ skill/technique recreational
activity."

- Len Anderson

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/913159af9e8f2526?dmode=source&hl=en
h***@hotmail.com
2005-10-28 09:52:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by N***@AOL.COM
"I've always had trouble with integrating "youngsters"
in what is a primarily _adult_ skill/technique recreational
activity."
- Len Anderson
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/913159af9e8f2526?dmode=source&hl=en
James has been busy.
Dee Flint
2005-10-28 11:28:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by N***@AOL.COM
"I've always had trouble with integrating "youngsters"
in what is a primarily _adult_ skill/technique recreational
activity."
- Len Anderson
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/913159af9e8f2526?dmode=source&hl=en
The integration of youngsters into adult activities is one of the beauties
of ham radio. This is one of the few opportunities that they have to learn
by direct participation on an equal footing with adults. This opportunity
has been increasingly rare in modern times. The young normally tend to be
isolated to non-adult activities and the adults are there simply as
supervisors, trainers, or "taxis."

It is truly a wonderful thing to see the youngsters, oldsters, and those
in-between working together on projects.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
N***@AOL.COM
2005-10-28 21:42:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dee Flint
Post by N***@AOL.COM
"I've always had trouble with integrating "youngsters"
in what is a primarily _adult_ skill/technique recreational
activity."
- Len Anderson
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/913159af9e8f2526?dmode=source&hl=en
The integration of youngsters into adult activities is one of the beauties
of ham radio.
Agreed!
Post by Dee Flint
This is one of the few opportunities that they have to learn
by direct participation on an equal footing with adults.
And it has always been so, at least in the USA.
Post by Dee Flint
This opportunity
has been increasingly rare in modern times. The young normally tend to be
isolated to non-adult activities and the adults are there simply as
supervisors, trainers, or "taxis."
It is truly a wonderful thing to see the youngsters, oldsters, and those
in-between working together on projects.
It's also a wonderful thing to hear people of all ages on the ham
bands,
working each other regardless of age, gender, race, religion, etc.,
without prejudice or classification by same. Morse Code and the
"data modes" are better for this than voice.


73 de Jim, N2EY
h***@hotmail.com
2005-10-29 04:27:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Post by Dee Flint
Post by N***@AOL.COM
"I've always had trouble with integrating "youngsters"
in what is a primarily _adult_ skill/technique recreational
activity."
- Len Anderson
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/913159af9e8f2526?dmode=source&hl=en
The integration of youngsters into adult activities is one of the beauties
of ham radio.
Agreed!
Post by Dee Flint
This is one of the few opportunities that they have to learn
by direct participation on an equal footing with adults.
And it has always been so, at least in the USA.
Post by Dee Flint
This opportunity
has been increasingly rare in modern times. The young normally tend to be
isolated to non-adult activities and the adults are there simply as
supervisors, trainers, or "taxis."
It is truly a wonderful thing to see the youngsters, oldsters, and those
in-between working together on projects.
It's also a wonderful thing to hear people of all ages on the ham
bands,
working each other regardless of age, gender, race, religion, etc.,
without prejudice or classification by same. Morse Code and the
"data modes" are better for this than voice.
73 de Jim, N2EY
Obviously you've never heard of the Boy Scouts of America nor the Merit
Badge program.

Best of luck catching up to the world as it presently exists.
Dee Flint
2005-10-29 12:36:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Post by Dee Flint
Post by N***@AOL.COM
"I've always had trouble with integrating "youngsters"
in what is a primarily _adult_ skill/technique recreational
activity."
- Len Anderson
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/913159af9e8f2526?dmode=source&hl=en
The integration of youngsters into adult activities is one of the beauties
of ham radio.
Agreed!
Post by Dee Flint
This is one of the few opportunities that they have to learn
by direct participation on an equal footing with adults.
And it has always been so, at least in the USA.
Post by Dee Flint
This opportunity
has been increasingly rare in modern times. The young normally tend to be
isolated to non-adult activities and the adults are there simply as
supervisors, trainers, or "taxis."
It is truly a wonderful thing to see the youngsters, oldsters, and those
in-between working together on projects.
It's also a wonderful thing to hear people of all ages on the ham
bands,
working each other regardless of age, gender, race, religion, etc.,
without prejudice or classification by same. Morse Code and the
"data modes" are better for this than voice.
73 de Jim, N2EY
Obviously you've never heard of the Boy Scouts of America nor the Merit
Badge program.
Best of luck catching up to the world as it presently exists.
The Boy Scouts is a youth activity program led and supervised by the adults.
It is not an activity where the young are integrated into an adult activity
and participating on an equal footing. The Scoutmaster leads the troop. On
the other hand, in amateur radio, the 14 year old Extra can be a control op
at HF while the 60 year old Tech cannot. I.e. In ham radio, the license is
the controlling factor while age is irrelevant.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
h***@hotmail.com
2005-10-29 22:10:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dee Flint
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Post by Dee Flint
Post by N***@AOL.COM
"I've always had trouble with integrating "youngsters"
in what is a primarily _adult_ skill/technique recreational
activity."
- Len Anderson
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/913159af9e8f2526?dmode=source&hl=en
The integration of youngsters into adult activities is one of the beauties
of ham radio.
Agreed!
Post by Dee Flint
This is one of the few opportunities that they have to learn
by direct participation on an equal footing with adults.
And it has always been so, at least in the USA.
Post by Dee Flint
This opportunity
has been increasingly rare in modern times. The young normally tend to be
isolated to non-adult activities and the adults are there simply as
supervisors, trainers, or "taxis."
It is truly a wonderful thing to see the youngsters, oldsters, and those
in-between working together on projects.
It's also a wonderful thing to hear people of all ages on the ham
bands,
working each other regardless of age, gender, race, religion, etc.,
without prejudice or classification by same. Morse Code and the
"data modes" are better for this than voice.
73 de Jim, N2EY
Obviously you've never heard of the Boy Scouts of America nor the Merit
Badge program.
Best of luck catching up to the world as it presently exists.
The Boy Scouts is a youth activity program led and supervised by the adults.
It is not an activity where the young are integrated into an adult activity
and participating on an equal footing. The Scoutmaster leads the troop. On
the other hand, in amateur radio, the 14 year old Extra can be a control op
at HF while the 60 year old Tech cannot. I.e. In ham radio, the license is
the controlling factor while age is irrelevant.
Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
So you think the Scoutmaster is the Merit Badge Coundelor?
Dee Flint
2005-10-29 22:25:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by Dee Flint
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Post by Dee Flint
Post by N***@AOL.COM
"I've always had trouble with integrating "youngsters"
in what is a primarily _adult_ skill/technique recreational
activity."
- Len Anderson
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.amateur.policy/msg/913159af9e8f2526?dmode=source&hl=en
The integration of youngsters into adult activities is one of the beauties
of ham radio.
Agreed!
Post by Dee Flint
This is one of the few opportunities that they have to learn
by direct participation on an equal footing with adults.
And it has always been so, at least in the USA.
Post by Dee Flint
This opportunity
has been increasingly rare in modern times. The young normally tend
to
be
isolated to non-adult activities and the adults are there simply as
supervisors, trainers, or "taxis."
It is truly a wonderful thing to see the youngsters, oldsters, and those
in-between working together on projects.
It's also a wonderful thing to hear people of all ages on the ham
bands,
working each other regardless of age, gender, race, religion, etc.,
without prejudice or classification by same. Morse Code and the
"data modes" are better for this than voice.
73 de Jim, N2EY
Obviously you've never heard of the Boy Scouts of America nor the Merit
Badge program.
Best of luck catching up to the world as it presently exists.
The Boy Scouts is a youth activity program led and supervised by the adults.
It is not an activity where the young are integrated into an adult activity
and participating on an equal footing. The Scoutmaster leads the troop.
On
the other hand, in amateur radio, the 14 year old Extra can be a control op
at HF while the 60 year old Tech cannot. I.e. In ham radio, the license is
the controlling factor while age is irrelevant.
Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
So you think the Scoutmaster is the Merit Badge Coundelor?
Didn't say that. Said scouts are under the supervision and leadership of
adults and not on an equal footing with the adults.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
h***@hotmail.com
2005-10-30 13:25:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dee Flint
Didn't say that. Said scouts are under the supervision and leadership of
adults and not on an equal footing with the adults.
Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
There is no requirement for a merit badge counselor to be a scout
leader. There is no requirement for a scout leader to supervise a
scout and his merit badge counselor, however, the merit badge counselor
must fill out a form and be approved to perform as such.

The merit badge counselor works like the "Elmer" concept in amateur
radio. What do you think happens when the scout is going for his Radio
merit badge?
Dee Flint
2005-10-30 16:55:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by Dee Flint
Didn't say that. Said scouts are under the supervision and leadership of
adults and not on an equal footing with the adults.
Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
There is no requirement for a merit badge counselor to be a scout
leader. There is no requirement for a scout leader to supervise a
scout and his merit badge counselor, however, the merit badge counselor
must fill out a form and be approved to perform as such.
The merit badge counselor works like the "Elmer" concept in amateur
radio. What do you think happens when the scout is going for his Radio
merit badge?
When the scout earns a merit badge, it does not put him on the same level of
authority and responsibility as the scout masters or leaders. That merit
badge does not make him the "equal" of the adults.

On the other hand, a 14 year old ham radio licensee has all the same rights,
privileges, and responsibilities as any other licensee of the same class.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
N***@AOL.COM
2005-10-30 18:45:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dee Flint
When the scout earns a merit badge,
it does not put him on the same level of
authority and responsibility as the scout
masters or leaders. That merit
badge does not make him the "equal" of the adults.
Indeed.

Also interesting to note that the Scouts (both Boy and Girl) have
an elaborate system of "rank, status, and privilege" by which
they classify different members, and their accomplishments.

An "incentive" system, if you will.
Post by Dee Flint
On the other hand, a 14 year old ham radio licensee
...or a 10 year old, or an 8 year old...
Post by Dee Flint
has all the same rights,
privileges, and responsibilities as
any other licensee of the same class.
And it's been that way (in the USA) since at least 1912.

Yet the proponents of an age requirement for a USA-issued
amateur license cannot provide any evidence that the lack
of such a requirement has caused problems for the ARS.

More important, this lack of an age requirement plus the
anonymizing nature of Morse Code and the "data modes" has
promoted and supported a form of equality among hams of all ages
are/were very rare.

Perhaps it is this equality that bothers some people so much.

When I was a 13 year old calling CQ on
80 CW, those who heard my signal and answered did not know
I was a seventh-grader unless I told them.

When I was 14 and
NCSing section nets and taking traffic to the region net, (all
using Morse Code) no one asked or cared how old I was - they
only cared if I was a competent operator.

There's a teenager who has the distinction of being the youngest
ham to earn an Amateur Extra class license - which that ham did
at the age of 8. Our first QSO (using Morse Code, naturally) was
when that amateur was 10 - and I didn't find out about the age thing
until well into the QSO.

Why should there be an age limit for an amateur radio license?

73 de Jim, N2EY
an_old_friend
2005-10-30 19:08:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Post by Dee Flint
When the scout earns a merit badge,
it does not put him on the same level of
authority and responsibility as the scout
masters or leaders. That merit
badge does not make him the "equal" of the adults.
Indeed.
Also interesting to note that the Scouts (both Boy and Girl) have
an elaborate system of "rank, status, and privilege" by which
they classify different members, and their accomplishments.
it works well for children
Post by N***@AOL.COM
An "incentive" system, if you will.
it works well for children

now what it that has to do with the ARS I don't know unless you are
endorsing the childish one upmanship we see so often in the ARS
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Post by Dee Flint
On the other hand, a 14 year old ham radio licensee
...or a 10 year old, or an 8 year old...
Post by Dee Flint
has all the same rights,
privileges, and responsibilities as
any other licensee of the same class.
And it's been that way (in the USA) since at least 1912.
Yet the proponents of an age requirement for a USA-issued
amateur license cannot provide any evidence that the lack
of such a requirement has caused problems for the ARS.
proponents? what proponents? Len is now sevaeral people in your eyes?
Post by N***@AOL.COM
More important, this lack of an age requirement plus the
anonymizing nature of Morse Code and the "data modes" has
promoted and supported a form of equality among hams of all ages
are/were very rare.
bullshit you have trailed off into complete fantasy
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Perhaps it is this equality that bothers some people so much.
When I was a 13 year old calling CQ on
80 CW, those who heard my signal and answered did not know
I was a seventh-grader unless I told them.
When I was 14 and
NCSing section nets and taking traffic to the region net, (all
using Morse Code) no one asked or cared how old I was - they
only cared if I was a competent operator.
There's a teenager who has the distinction of being the youngest
ham to earn an Amateur Extra class license - which that ham did
at the age of 8. Our first QSO (using Morse Code, naturally) was
when that amateur was 10 - and I didn't find out about the age thing
until well into the QSO.
Why should there be an age limit for an amateur radio license?
why are you beating a dead horse?
Post by N***@AOL.COM
73 de Jim, N2EY
h***@hotmail.com
2005-10-30 21:25:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Post by Dee Flint
When the scout earns a merit badge,
it does not put him on the same level of
authority and responsibility as the scout
masters or leaders.
That is not the intent of the merit badge. But that is not what I'm
driving at. Again you miss the concept of the Merit Badge Counselor.

That merit
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Post by Dee Flint
badge does not make him the "equal" of the adults.
Indeed.
Has it ever?

Again you miss the concept of the Merit Badge Counselor.
Dee Flint
2005-10-31 01:13:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Post by Dee Flint
When the scout earns a merit badge,
it does not put him on the same level of
authority and responsibility as the scout
masters or leaders.
That is not the intent of the merit badge. But that is not what I'm
driving at. Again you miss the concept of the Merit Badge Counselor.
That merit
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Post by Dee Flint
badge does not make him the "equal" of the adults.
Indeed.
Has it ever?
Again you miss the concept of the Merit Badge Counselor.
And you are missing my point that the Scouts is not an organization that has
the young participate on an equal footing. You are the one who keeps
mentioning the Merit Badge Counselor, not I. It has no bearing on whether
or not the young scouts have equality with the adults.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
h***@hotmail.com
2005-10-31 01:49:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dee Flint
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Post by Dee Flint
When the scout earns a merit badge,
it does not put him on the same level of
authority and responsibility as the scout
masters or leaders.
That is not the intent of the merit badge. But that is not what I'm
driving at. Again you miss the concept of the Merit Badge Counselor.
That merit
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Post by Dee Flint
badge does not make him the "equal" of the adults.
Indeed.
Has it ever?
Again you miss the concept of the Merit Badge Counselor.
And you are missing my point that the Scouts is not an organization that has
the young participate on an equal footing. You are the one who keeps
mentioning the Merit Badge Counselor, not I.
Keeps mentioning? It is the crux of my comment. That you know nothing
beyond Scoutmasters and other leaders is not my fault.
Post by Dee Flint
It has no bearing on whether
or not the young scouts have equality with the adults.
Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
As long as you insist that the Merit Badge Counselor lords his or her
knowledge and age over the child, then you must be correct. Go in
peace.
k***@amsat.org
2005-10-31 02:00:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by Dee Flint
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Post by Dee Flint
When the scout earns a merit badge,
it does not put him on the same level of
authority and responsibility as the scout
masters or leaders.
That is not the intent of the merit badge. But that is not what I'm
driving at. Again you miss the concept of the Merit Badge Counselor.
That merit
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Post by Dee Flint
badge does not make him the "equal" of the adults.
Indeed.
Has it ever?
Again you miss the concept of the Merit Badge Counselor.
And you are missing my point that the Scouts is not an organization that has
the young participate on an equal footing. You are the one who keeps
mentioning the Merit Badge Counselor, not I.
Keeps mentioning? It is the crux of my comment. That you know nothing
beyond Scoutmasters and other leaders is not my fault.
Post by Dee Flint
It has no bearing on whether
or not the young scouts have equality with the adults.
Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
As long as you insist that the Merit Badge Counselor lords his or her
knowledge and age over the child, then you must be correct. Go in
peace.
Dee has her mind made made up and like the rest is not willing to
entertain any discussion

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Dee Flint
2005-11-01 01:12:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by Dee Flint
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Post by Dee Flint
When the scout earns a merit badge,
it does not put him on the same level of
authority and responsibility as the scout
masters or leaders.
That is not the intent of the merit badge. But that is not what I'm
driving at. Again you miss the concept of the Merit Badge Counselor.
That merit
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Post by Dee Flint
badge does not make him the "equal" of the adults.
Indeed.
Has it ever?
Again you miss the concept of the Merit Badge Counselor.
And you are missing my point that the Scouts is not an organization that has
the young participate on an equal footing. You are the one who keeps
mentioning the Merit Badge Counselor, not I.
Keeps mentioning? It is the crux of my comment. That you know nothing
beyond Scoutmasters and other leaders is not my fault.
Post by Dee Flint
It has no bearing on whether
or not the young scouts have equality with the adults.
Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
As long as you insist that the Merit Badge Counselor lords his or her
knowledge and age over the child, then you must be correct. Go in
peace.
And if you choose to believe that the scouts and the adult leaders are
interacting as equals, then go right ahead even though that is not the way
they are set up.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
h***@hotmail.com
2005-11-01 11:50:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dee Flint
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by Dee Flint
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Post by Dee Flint
When the scout earns a merit badge,
it does not put him on the same level of
authority and responsibility as the scout
masters or leaders.
That is not the intent of the merit badge. But that is not what I'm
driving at. Again you miss the concept of the Merit Badge Counselor.
That merit
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Post by Dee Flint
badge does not make him the "equal" of the adults.
Indeed.
Has it ever?
Again you miss the concept of the Merit Badge Counselor.
And you are missing my point that the Scouts is not an organization that has
the young participate on an equal footing. You are the one who keeps
mentioning the Merit Badge Counselor, not I.
Keeps mentioning? It is the crux of my comment. That you know nothing
beyond Scoutmasters and other leaders is not my fault.
Post by Dee Flint
It has no bearing on whether
or not the young scouts have equality with the adults.
Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
As long as you insist that the Merit Badge Counselor lords his or her
knowledge and age over the child, then you must be correct. Go in
peace.
And if you choose to believe that the scouts and the adult leaders are
interacting as equals, then go right ahead even though that is not the way
they are set up.
I don't beleive that, never have, see above. You refuse to become
knowledgeable about another facet of scouting; the merit badge
counselor.
Dee Flint
2005-11-01 11:56:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by Dee Flint
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by Dee Flint
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Post by Dee Flint
When the scout earns a merit badge,
it does not put him on the same level of
authority and responsibility as the scout
masters or leaders.
That is not the intent of the merit badge. But that is not what I'm
driving at. Again you miss the concept of the Merit Badge Counselor.
That merit
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Post by Dee Flint
badge does not make him the "equal" of the adults.
Indeed.
Has it ever?
Again you miss the concept of the Merit Badge Counselor.
And you are missing my point that the Scouts is not an organization
that
has
the young participate on an equal footing. You are the one who keeps
mentioning the Merit Badge Counselor, not I.
Keeps mentioning? It is the crux of my comment. That you know nothing
beyond Scoutmasters and other leaders is not my fault.
Post by Dee Flint
It has no bearing on whether
or not the young scouts have equality with the adults.
Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
As long as you insist that the Merit Badge Counselor lords his or her
knowledge and age over the child, then you must be correct. Go in
peace.
And if you choose to believe that the scouts and the adult leaders are
interacting as equals, then go right ahead even though that is not the way
they are set up.
I don't beleive that, never have, see above. You refuse to become
knowledgeable about another facet of scouting; the merit badge
counselor.
I have always been talking about the interaction of equals. You keep trying
to switch it to the merit badge counselor. I choose not to fall for the
bait and switch. Since I've stated my point several times, I will not
continue this discourse as I've no interest in your bait and switch tactics.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
k***@amsat.org
2005-11-01 13:30:45 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 06:56:40 -0500, "Dee Flint"
Post by Dee Flint
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by Dee Flint
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by Dee Flint
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Post by Dee Flint
When the scout earns a merit badge,
it does not put him on the same level of
authority and responsibility as the scout
masters or leaders.
That is not the intent of the merit badge. But that is not what I'm
driving at. Again you miss the concept of the Merit Badge Counselor.
That merit
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Post by Dee Flint
badge does not make him the "equal" of the adults.
Indeed.
Has it ever?
Again you miss the concept of the Merit Badge Counselor.
And you are missing my point that the Scouts is not an organization
that
has
the young participate on an equal footing. You are the one who keeps
mentioning the Merit Badge Counselor, not I.
Keeps mentioning? It is the crux of my comment. That you know nothing
beyond Scoutmasters and other leaders is not my fault.
Post by Dee Flint
It has no bearing on whether
or not the young scouts have equality with the adults.
Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
As long as you insist that the Merit Badge Counselor lords his or her
knowledge and age over the child, then you must be correct. Go in
peace.
And if you choose to believe that the scouts and the adult leaders are
interacting as equals, then go right ahead even though that is not the way
they are set up.
I don't beleive that, never have, see above. You refuse to become
knowledgeable about another facet of scouting; the merit badge
counselor.
I have always been talking about the interaction of equals. You keep trying
to switch it to the merit badge counselor.
Noramly i would make some cuts up there but in this case I will not

Leaving them alone makes the post complee in prooving Dee Flint is
lying in the assertion Brain is trying to switch the subject
Post by Dee Flint
I choose not to fall for the
bait and switch. Since I've stated my point several times, I will not
continue this discourse....
standard response form the elitist liars around here first lying about
discoursing in the first place then
Post by Dee Flint
....... as I've no interest in your bait and switch tactics.
then refuse to discuss at all

SOP
Post by Dee Flint
Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
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h***@hotmail.com
2005-11-02 11:08:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@amsat.org
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 06:56:40 -0500, "Dee Flint"
Post by Dee Flint
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by Dee Flint
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by Dee Flint
Post by h***@hotmail.com
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Post by Dee Flint
When the scout earns a merit badge,
it does not put him on the same level of
authority and responsibility as the scout
masters or leaders.
That is not the intent of the merit badge. But that is not what I'm
driving at. Again you miss the concept of the Merit Badge Counselor.
That merit
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Post by Dee Flint
badge does not make him the "equal" of the adults.
Indeed.
Has it ever?
Again you miss the concept of the Merit Badge Counselor.
And you are missing my point that the Scouts is not an organization
that
has
the young participate on an equal footing. You are the one who keeps
mentioning the Merit Badge Counselor, not I.
Keeps mentioning? It is the crux of my comment. That you know nothing
beyond Scoutmasters and other leaders is not my fault.
Post by Dee Flint
It has no bearing on whether
or not the young scouts have equality with the adults.
Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
As long as you insist that the Merit Badge Counselor lords his or her
knowledge and age over the child, then you must be correct. Go in
peace.
And if you choose to believe that the scouts and the adult leaders are
interacting as equals, then go right ahead even though that is not the way
they are set up.
I don't beleive that, never have, see above. You refuse to become
knowledgeable about another facet of scouting; the merit badge
counselor.
I have always been talking about the interaction of equals. You keep trying
to switch it to the merit badge counselor.
Noramly i would make some cuts up there but in this case I will not
Leaving them alone makes the post complee in prooving Dee Flint is
lying in the assertion Brain is trying to switch the subject
Post by Dee Flint
I choose not to fall for the
bait and switch. Since I've stated my point several times, I will not
continue this discourse....
standard response form the elitist liars around here first lying about
discoursing in the first place then
Post by Dee Flint
....... as I've no interest in your bait and switch tactics.
then refuse to discuss at all
SOP
She fears learning something that might shake her faith in Hiramology.
h***@hotmail.com
2005-10-30 21:38:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by N***@AOL.COM
More important, this lack of an age requirement plus the
anonymizing nature of Morse Code and the "data modes" has
promoted and supported a form of equality among hams of all ages
are/were very rare.
Perhaps it is this equality that bothers some people so much.
" It's also a wonderful thing to hear people of all ages on the ham
bands, working each other regardless of age, gender, race, religion,
etc., without prejudice or classification by same. Morse Code and the
"data modes" are better for this than voice."

So which is it, Jim?

Does Morse Code anonymize the participants or doesn't it?

If the participants are anonymous, how is it that you can hear that
they are "of all ages on the ham bands, working each other regardless
of age, gender, race, religion, etc., without prejudice or
classification by same. Morse Code and the "data modes" are better for
this than voice."
Post by N***@AOL.COM
73 de Jim, N2EY
Good grief, Jim. At least you could have posted this stuff in
different threads so it wouldn't be so easy to spot.

Best of Luck
Iitoi
2005-10-30 01:51:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by N***@AOL.COM
It's also a wonderful thing to hear people of all ages on the ha
bands, working each other regardless of age, gender, race, religion
etc., without prejudice or classification by same. Morse Code and th
"data modes" are better for this than voice.
Why are those modes "better" than voice?

Seems that a voice conversation, under almost every circumstance, woul
lead to a richer exchange of information and better interperso
understanding than either Morse or "data" modes. Voices naturall
convey emotion and mood, allow an almost continuous range of emphasis
and can use different inflection to add subtle but important syntacti
variations to many words. None of this is possible in Morse or "data
modes, except in some very crude ways such as emoticons.

The Man in the Maze
QRV at Baboquivari Peak, A

--
Iitoi
N***@AOL.COM
2005-10-30 03:46:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Iitoi
Post by N***@AOL.COM
It's also a wonderful thing to hear people of all
ages on the ham
bands, working each other regardless of age, gender,
race, religion,
etc., without prejudice or classification by same.
Morse Code and the
"data modes" are better for this than voice.
Why are those modes "better" than voice?
I think you misunderstand.

Voice modes give all sorts of information about the speaker's
age, gender, ethnicity, etc., which are not immediately
obvious with Morse Code or "data modes".
Post by Iitoi
Seems that a voice conversation, under almost every
circumstance, would
lead to a richer exchange of information and better interperson
understanding than either Morse or "data" modes.
Why?

Voice modes can cause the listener to focus more on who is talking and
how they are talking, rather than what is being said.
Post by Iitoi
Voices naturally
convey emotion and mood, allow an almost continuous range of
emphasis,
and can use different inflection to add subtle but important
syntactic
variations to many words.
Those features can also be a weakness of voice modes.
Post by Iitoi
None of this is possible in Morse or "data"
modes, except in some very crude ways such as emoticons.
Which means the sender must concentrate on what is sent, not how it is
sent.

73 de Jim, N2EY
Iitoi
2005-10-30 16:52:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by N***@AOL.COM
I think you misunderstand.
Voice modes give all sorts of information about the speaker's
age, gender, ethnicity, etc., which are not immediately
obvious with Morse Code or "data modes".
No, I understand very well. In fact, that's my point. Voic
conversations inherently provide more information, just as you poin
out.
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Voice modes can cause the listener to focus more on who is talking and
how they are talking, rather than what is being said.
???????????

"who is talking" and "how they are talking" are often (if not always
as important in understanding "what is being said".

Consider this question: "How much should I take off?" Suppose th
questioner was your barber discussing your hair, or a romantic partne
discussing her attire, or car salesperson discussing price discounts.
Clearly the meaning of that query is wildly different depending on "wh
is talking and how they are talking".
Post by N***@AOL.COM
Voices naturally convey emotion and mood, allow an almost continuous
range of emphasis, and can use different inflection to add subtle but
important syntactic variations to many words.
Those features can also be a weakness of voice modes.
Since those factors serve to amplify and refine the simple "bare
words, adding a layer of "richness", they are a strength (not
weakness) of voice conversation over the terse exchange of Morse o
"data" signals.

In summary, "What is being said, who is saying it, and how they ar
saying it" will always lead to a richer conversation than just "what i
being said".

The Man in the Maze
QRV at Baboquivari Peak, A

--
Iitoi
Dee Flint
2005-10-30 16:42:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Iitoi
Post by N***@AOL.COM
It's also a wonderful thing to hear people of all ages on the ham
bands, working each other regardless of age, gender, race, religion,
etc., without prejudice or classification by same. Morse Code and the
"data modes" are better for this than voice.
Why are those modes "better" than voice?
Seems that a voice conversation, under almost every circumstance, would
lead to a richer exchange of information and better interperson
understanding than either Morse or "data" modes. Voices naturally
convey emotion and mood, allow an almost continuous range of emphasis,
and can use different inflection to add subtle but important syntactic
variations to many words. None of this is possible in Morse or "data"
modes, except in some very crude ways such as emoticons.
The Man in the Maze
QRV at Baboquivari Peak, AZ
--
Iitoi
I believe that his point was that on the non-voice modes, you cannot tell
whether someone is male or female or whether they are young or old. So that
there is less chance of them being discriminated against or harassed by
those who think women or young people should not be on the radio.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
Iitoi
2005-10-31 01:42:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dee Flint
I believe that his point was that on the non-voice modes, you canno
tell
whether someone is male or female or whether they are young or old. S
that
there is less chance of them being discriminated against or harasse
by
those who think women or young people should not be on the radio.
Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
Is there a large percentage (or even a measurable fraction) of ham
"who think women or young people should not be on the radio"?

I think you have to go back several decades to the legendary W2OY (wit
aplologies to the current holder) to find a single visible example o
that attitude.

As a member of multiple minority groups (Native American, Hispani
surname, non-Christian religion) I'm sensitive to discrimination an
harrassment issues. My long and enthusiastic association with amateu
radio is in large part due to my complete acceptance within the hobb
without any regard to my ethnic roots, skin color, or religion.
Neither have I seen anything but complete acceptance of young peopl
and those of the fairer gender in the hobby. If the general populatio
were as tolerant of diversity as I've found the ham hobbiests to be
this would certainly be a nicer place to live.

Thus N2EY's suggestion (if that's really his point as you surmise) tha
young people and females would do well to mask themselves behin
keys/keyboards to avoid unpleasantness is ludicrous on it's face, an
might be construed as a projection of an unrevealed agenda of his own.

The Man in the Maze
QRV at Baboquivari Peak, A

--
Iitoi
k***@amsat.org
2005-10-31 03:44:55 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 01:42:18 +0000, Iitoi
Post by Dee Flint
I believe that his point was that on the non-voice modes, you cannot tell
whether someone is male or female or whether they are young or old. So that
there is less chance of them being discriminated against or harassed by
those who think women or young people should not be on the radio.
Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
Is there a large percentage (or even a measurable fraction) of hams
"who think women or young people should not be on the radio"?
I think you have to go back several decades to the legendary W2OY (with
aplologies to the current holder) to find a single visible example of
that attitude.
As a member of multiple minority groups (Native American, Hispanic
surname, non-Christian religion) I'm sensitive to discrimination and
harrassment issues. My long and enthusiastic association with amateur
radio is in large part due to my complete acceptance within the hobby
without any regard to my ethnic roots, skin color, or religion.
Neither have I seen anything but complete acceptance of young people
and those of the fairer gender in the hobby. If the general population
were as tolerant of diversity as I've found the ham hobbiests to be,
this would certainly be a nicer place to live.
Thus N2EY's suggestion (if that's really his point as you surmise) that
young people and females would do well to mask themselves behind
keys/keyboards to avoid unpleasantness is ludicrous on it's face, and
might be construed as a projection of an unrevealed agenda of his own.
his point has its place. I know from my ownexperences since my voice
sounds female and some get rather irate finding out I am male I
certainly prefer non voice mode myself FSATV esp
The Man in the Maze
QRV at Baboquivari Peak, AZ
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Iitoi
2005-10-31 16:22:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@amsat.org
his point has its place. I know from my ownexperences since my voic
sounds female and some get rather irate finding out I am male
That seems exactly counter to his "point". His point (as interprete
by N8UZE) is that females and children are subject to discriminatio
and should anonomize themselves by avoiding voice operation.

Your point seems to be that you are accepted on the air when you ar
presumed to be female, but discriminated against when it is discovere
your gender is male.

The Man in the Maze
QRV at Baboquivari Peak, A

--
Iitoi
k***@amsat.org
2005-10-31 21:15:09 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 16:22:33 +0000, Iitoi
Post by k***@amsat.org
his point has its place. I know from my ownexperences since my voice
sounds female and some get rather irate finding out I am male
That seems exactly counter to his "point". His point (as interpreted
by N8UZE) is that females and children are subject to discrimination
and should anonomize themselves by avoiding voice operation.
Your point seems to be that you are accepted on the air when you are
presumed to be female, but discriminated against when it is discovered
your gender is male.
not accepted but rather shall we say sought after a few of the guys
have proposed Marriage to me and other anoying stunts then get
reaaallllly Pissed to find I am male
The Man in the Maze
QRV at Baboquivari Peak, AZ
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Cmdr Buzz Corey
2005-10-31 22:56:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@amsat.org
not accepted but rather shall we say sought after a few of the guys
have proposed Marriage to me and other anoying stunts then get
reaaallllly Pissed to find I am male
GAG!!!
Iitoi
2005-11-01 04:12:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@amsat.org
not accepted but rather shall we say sought after a few of the guys
have proposed Marriage to me
Is this fool real?

The Man in the Maze
QRV at Baboquivari Peak, A

--
Iitoi
k***@amsat.org
2005-11-01 09:27:07 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 04:12:51 +0000, Iitoi
Post by Iitoi
Post by k***@amsat.org
not accepted but rather shall we say sought after a few of the guys
have proposed Marriage to me
Is this fool real?
interesting that you ask after also start a thread titled

Mark bough a new wris****ch
Post by Iitoi
The Man in the Maze
QRV at Baboquivari Peak, AZ
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Dave Heil
2005-11-02 04:19:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Iitoi
Post by k***@amsat.org
not accepted but rather shall we say sought after a few of the guys
have proposed Marriage to me
Is this fool real?
...as the term is understood by him, yes.

Dave K8MN
Dee Flint
2005-11-01 01:17:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@amsat.org
his point has its place. I know from my ownexperences since my voice
sounds female and some get rather irate finding out I am male
That seems exactly counter to his "point". His point (as interpreted
by N8UZE) is that females and children are subject to discrimination
and should anonomize themselves by avoiding voice operation.
Just to clarify, I have never personally experienced such discrimination on
the air and have no reason to avoid voice. I have known one youth who was
discriminated against though. She was working CW and doing it better than
the person with whom she was having a QSO. When that person learned her
age, they terminated the QSO.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
k***@amtas.com
2005-10-31 21:13:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@amsat.org
his point has its place. I know from my ownexperences since my voice
sounds female and some get rather irate finding out I am male
That seems exactly counter to his "point". His point (as interpreted
by N8UZE) is that females and children are subject to discrimination
and should anonomize themselves by avoiding voice operation.
Your point seems to be that you are accepted on the air when you are
presumed to be female, but discriminated against when it is discovered
your gender is male.
The Man in the Maze
QRV at Baboquivari Peak, AZ
I dot mind becuse I do waht girls do in teh bed
anway.
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Not Lloyd
2005-10-31 23:23:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@amsat.org
his point has its place. I know from my ownexperences since my voice
sounds female and some get rather irate finding out I am male
That seems exactly counter to his "point". His point (as interpreted
by N8UZE) is that females and children are subject to discrimination
and should anonomize themselves by avoiding voice operation.
Your point seems to be that you are accepted on the air when you are
presumed to be female, but discriminated against when it is discovered
your gender is male.
The Man in the Maze
QRV at Baboquivari Peak, AZ
I dot mind becuse I do waht girls do in teh bed
anway.

..

What? You menstruate?
w***@yahoo.com
2005-11-01 02:23:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@amtas.com
Post by k***@amsat.org
his point has its place. I know from my ownexperences since my voice
sounds female and some get rather irate finding out I am male
That seems exactly counter to his "point". His point (as interpreted
by N8UZE) is that females and children are subject to discrimination
and should anonomize themselves by avoiding voice operation.
Your point seems to be that you are accepted on the air when you are
presumed to be female, but discriminated against when it is discovered
your gender is male.
The Man in the Maze
QRV at Baboquivari Peak, AZ
I dot mind becuse I do waht girls do in teh bed
anway.
..
What? You menstruate?
You sure do, Davies.
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